Did You Know? Cookie Connection Can Help You Sell Cookies!

I was wondering if I truly need to officially sell cookies to enter into the list?

Because that's very hard to achieve in Germany (with very complicated medieval guild laws still being applied...). Selling cookies without having the official acknowledgement of the chamber of crafts (which is what the guilds are called nowadays) can get me into a lot of trouble.

But what I can do, absolutely legal, is barter. And I have done several sets which I changed for stuff, e.g. a bottle of perfume, hand-knitted socks. If that classifies for the directory, I would love to enter.

Laegwen posted:

I was wondering if I truly need to officially sell cookies to enter into the list?

Because that's very hard to achieve in Germany (with very complicated medieval guild laws still being applied...). Selling cookies without having the official acknowledgement of the chamber of crafts (which is what the guilds are called nowadays) can get me into a lot of trouble.

But what I can do, absolutely legal, is barter. And I have done several sets which I changed for stuff, e.g. a bottle of perfume, hand-knitted socks. If that classifies for the directory, I would love to enter.

I would be happy to add you with the note that you only barter. So, please, when you fill out the "form", which asks which areas you serve (among other things), please add this note. I copy your answers verbatim into the directory and won't remember to add this information unless you write it (in the area under the link above, not here). Thanks!

Laegwen posted:

I was wondering if I truly need to officially sell cookies to enter into the list?

Because that's very hard to achieve in Germany (with very complicated medieval guild laws still being applied...). Selling cookies without having the official acknowledgement of the chamber of crafts (which is what the guilds are called nowadays) can get me into a lot of trouble.

But what I can do, absolutely legal, is barter. And I have done several sets which I changed for stuff, e.g. a bottle of perfume, hand-knitted socks. If that classifies for the directory, I would love to enter.

seriously, still medieval guild laws?!  and do you also have to complete a 'master project' to be allowed membership of the chamber of crafts?

(medieval times are where my interests lay when studied and in early jobs)

Julia M. Usher posted:

Laegwen posted:

I was wondering if I truly need to officially sell cookies to enter into the list?

Because that's very hard to achieve in Germany (with very complicated medieval guild laws still being applied...). Selling cookies without having the official acknowledgement of the chamber of crafts (which is what the guilds are called nowadays) can get me into a lot of trouble.

But what I can do, absolutely legal, is barter. And I have done several sets which I changed for stuff, e.g. a bottle of perfume, hand-knitted socks. If that classifies for the directory, I would love to enter.

I would be happy to add you with the note that you only barter. So, please, when you fill out the "form", which asks which areas you serve (among other things), please add this note. I copy your answers verbatim into the directory and won't remember to add this information unless you write it (in the area under the link above, not here). Thanks!

Thanks! I'll certainly remeber to add this when I fill out my form!

Liesbet posted:

Laegwen posted:

I was wondering if I truly need to officially sell cookies to enter into the list?

Because that's very hard to achieve in Germany (with very complicated medieval guild laws still being applied...). Selling cookies without having the official acknowledgement of the chamber of crafts (which is what the guilds are called nowadays) can get me into a lot of trouble.

But what I can do, absolutely legal, is barter. And I have done several sets which I changed for stuff, e.g. a bottle of perfume, hand-knitted socks. If that classifies for the directory, I would love to enter.

seriously, still medieval guild laws?!  and do you also have to complete a 'master project' to be allowed membership of the chamber of crafts?

(medieval times are where my interests lay when studied and in early jobs)

Well, generally yes, that’s how it still is.

Though there are huge differences between the different crafts. E.g. for hairdressers and florists they changed the rules a couple of years ago, now it is enough to have finished your apprenticeship and ask for an exemption permit to open your shop without being a master – and that’s normally it.

For bakers on the other hand, you still need a master (which includes taking a master course, for appr. 8000€, a master test at the end and a master project). You can get an exemption permit for bakery products as well (which I could get for designing cookies), but you need to justify this and the chambers can still just reject without giving you a reason why. If they accept, you will need to take the master tests limited to your special field anyway (with the application fees, courses you need to take, etc. this comes very cheap at only about 2000-3000 €…). And then you get a special permit for only your local area and only for what you have been tested about.

With cookie design this is especially funny, as it is absolutely no part of a baker apprenticeship/master course and hardly any of the examiners know anything about it. Working with royal icing, or fondant, e.g. is still no part of either learning to be a baker, or even the addition pastry chef. But still those people insist that I can’t do it and they know better…

There are a lot of bakers/pastry chefs which actually do take courses with people like me (ordinary, self-taught citizens), as this is the only way they have of learning these things. The chambers don’t offer anything the like.

So these are the reasons that I don’t even consider taking this route and try to be allowed to officially sell my cookies – just imagine how long it would take to earn back my expenses! Especially as I don’t want to do this as a main job, but just an occasional set of cookies once in a while. And also, I can be pretty stubborn. This is a totally pointless procedure, taken directly from medieval guild laws to make sure that there is as little competition as possible. Even if the competition is no competition as it is offering something no baker offers. I’m not supporting something stupid like that!

And even if I did take all this pain, the next big problem would be the kitchen. I could never use the kitchen I have at home, it wouldn’t pass the test, not even after complete reconstruction for several thousand EUR – the main reason is that I have three cats, and a household with free running pets never gets permission to produce food. Meaning, I would have to rent a commercial space for a huge amount of money, too. What should I sell my cookies for??? 50 € per piece? Everything else would leave me with a loss!

OK, enough ranting. This whole topic is a red rag to me ;-)

Laegwen posted:

Liesbet posted:

Laegwen posted:

I was wondering if I truly need to officially sell cookies to enter into the list?

Because that's very hard to achieve in Germany (with very complicated medieval guild laws still being applied...). Selling cookies without having the official acknowledgement of the chamber of crafts (which is what the guilds are called nowadays) can get me into a lot of trouble.

But what I can do, absolutely legal, is barter. And I have done several sets which I changed for stuff, e.g. a bottle of perfume, hand-knitted socks. If that classifies for the directory, I would love to enter.

seriously, still medieval guild laws?!  and do you also have to complete a 'master project' to be allowed membership of the chamber of crafts?

(medieval times are where my interests lay when studied and in early jobs)

Well, generally yes, that’s how it still is.

Though there are huge differences between the different crafts. E.g. for hairdressers and florists they changed the rules a couple of years ago, now it is enough to have finished your apprenticeship and ask for an exemption permit to open your shop without being a master – and that’s normally it.

For bakers on the other hand, you still need a master (which includes taking a master course, for appr. 8000€, a master test at the end and a master project). You can get an exemption permit for bakery products as well (which I could get for designing cookies), but you need to justify this and the chambers can still just reject without giving you a reason why. If they accept, you will need to take the master tests limited to your special field anyway (with the application fees, courses you need to take, etc. this comes very cheap at only about 2000-3000 €…). And then you get a special permit for only your local area and only for what you have been tested about.

With cookie design this is especially funny, as it is absolutely no part of a baker apprenticeship/master course and hardly any of the examiners know anything about it. Working with royal icing, or fondant, e.g. is still no part of either learning to be a baker, or even the addition pastry chef. But still those people insist that I can’t do it and they know better…

There are a lot of bakers/pastry chefs which actually do take courses with people like me (ordinary, self-taught citizens), as this is the only way they have of learning these things. The chambers don’t offer anything the like.

So these are the reasons that I don’t even consider taking this route and try to be allowed to officially sell my cookies – just imagine how long it would take to earn back my expenses! Especially as I don’t want to do this as a main job, but just an occasional set of cookies once in a while. And also, I can be pretty stubborn. This is a totally pointless procedure, taken directly from medieval guild laws to make sure that there is as little competition as possible. Even if the competition is no competition as it is offering something no baker offers. I’m not supporting something stupid like that!

And even if I did take all this pain, the next big problem would be the kitchen. I could never use the kitchen I have at home, it wouldn’t pass the test, not even after complete reconstruction for several thousand EUR – the main reason is that I have three cats, and a household with free running pets never gets permission to produce food. Meaning, I would have to rent a commercial space for a huge amount of money, too. What should I sell my cookies for??? 50 € per piece? Everything else would leave me with a loss!

OK, enough ranting. This whole topic is a red rag to me ;-)

I'm sorry I raised a red rag at you!

But it is interesting and completely astonishing to read!!!  Is it like this for all private professions? What about plumbers, or electricians? There can't have been many of those around in medieval times?

Is this not obstructing the economy and job creation opportunities? Are there farmer's markets around where people sell home made goods?

It is so bizarre that they hold on to those old regulations! But very lucrative to the guilds!

Sorry to hear of your frustrating situation, Laegwen~!  It sounds ridiculous!  At any rate, please keep creating cookies.  Love your work!   Barbara

Liesbet posted:

Laegwen posted:

Liesbet posted:

Laegwen posted:

I was wondering if I truly need to officially sell cookies to enter into the list?

Because that's very hard to achieve in Germany (with very complicated medieval guild laws still being applied...). Selling cookies without having the official acknowledgement of the chamber of crafts (which is what the guilds are called nowadays) can get me into a lot of trouble.

But what I can do, absolutely legal, is barter. And I have done several sets which I changed for stuff, e.g. a bottle of perfume, hand-knitted socks. If that classifies for the directory, I would love to enter.

seriously, still medieval guild laws?!  and do you also have to complete a 'master project' to be allowed membership of the chamber of crafts?

(medieval times are where my interests lay when studied and in early jobs)

Well, generally yes, that’s how it still is.

Though there are huge differences between the different crafts. E.g. for hairdressers and florists they changed the rules a couple of years ago, now it is enough to have finished your apprenticeship and ask for an exemption permit to open your shop without being a master – and that’s normally it.

For bakers on the other hand, you still need a master (which includes taking a master course, for appr. 8000€, a master test at the end and a master project). You can get an exemption permit for bakery products as well (which I could get for designing cookies), but you need to justify this and the chambers can still just reject without giving you a reason why. If they accept, you will need to take the master tests limited to your special field anyway (with the application fees, courses you need to take, etc. this comes very cheap at only about 2000-3000 €…). And then you get a special permit for only your local area and only for what you have been tested about.

With cookie design this is especially funny, as it is absolutely no part of a baker apprenticeship/master course and hardly any of the examiners know anything about it. Working with royal icing, or fondant, e.g. is still no part of either learning to be a baker, or even the addition pastry chef. But still those people insist that I can’t do it and they know better…

There are a lot of bakers/pastry chefs which actually do take courses with people like me (ordinary, self-taught citizens), as this is the only way they have of learning these things. The chambers don’t offer anything the like.

So these are the reasons that I don’t even consider taking this route and try to be allowed to officially sell my cookies – just imagine how long it would take to earn back my expenses! Especially as I don’t want to do this as a main job, but just an occasional set of cookies once in a while. And also, I can be pretty stubborn. This is a totally pointless procedure, taken directly from medieval guild laws to make sure that there is as little competition as possible. Even if the competition is no competition as it is offering something no baker offers. I’m not supporting something stupid like that!

And even if I did take all this pain, the next big problem would be the kitchen. I could never use the kitchen I have at home, it wouldn’t pass the test, not even after complete reconstruction for several thousand EUR – the main reason is that I have three cats, and a household with free running pets never gets permission to produce food. Meaning, I would have to rent a commercial space for a huge amount of money, too. What should I sell my cookies for??? 50 € per piece? Everything else would leave me with a loss!

OK, enough ranting. This whole topic is a red rag to me ;-)

I'm sorry I raised a red rag at you!

But it is interesting and completely astonishing to read!!!  Is it like this for all private professions? What about plumbers, or electricians? There can't have been many of those around in medieval times?

Is this not obstructing the economy and job creation opportunities? Are there farmer's markets around where people sell home made goods?

It is so bizarre that they hold on to those old regulations! But very lucrative to the guilds!

Don't worry, I enjoy sharing those surreal German rules with the world

As far as I know those strict rules apply still to potentially dangerous jobs, in this case poisoning people with bad cookies. That's at least the official version. But I could open up a restaurant tomorrow, no rules against that...

Farmer's markets are kind of tolerated, as long as you don't do it very often and only small quantities. But it's not officially allowed.

Barbara at Blue Sky Cookies posted:

Sorry to hear of your frustrating situation, Laegwen~!  It sounds ridiculous!  At any rate, please keep creating cookies.  Love your work!   Barbara

Yep, it is ridiculous. But making cookies is mainly fun, not business to me, so it will sure not stop me them

Laegwen posted:

Barbara at Blue Sky Cookies posted:

Sorry to hear of your frustrating situation, Laegwen~!  It sounds ridiculous!  At any rate, please keep creating cookies.  Love your work!   Barbara

Yep, it is ridiculous. But making cookies is mainly fun, not business to me, so it will sure not stop me them

Leoni, how about selling your cookies as art? Let the buyers sign a note that they will not ingest them (grin)! There cannot be any rules against that? In the US they get around the selling of raw milk by labeling it as animal food... Just a thought...